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	<title>Comments on: Tautology Tuesday: how to avoid inflation when introducing a bulleted list</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.dorisandbertie.com/goodcopybadcopy/2008/10/07/tautology-tuesday-how-to-avoid-inflation-when-introducing-a-bulleted-list/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.dorisandbertie.com/goodcopybadcopy/2008/10/07/tautology-tuesday-how-to-avoid-inflation-when-introducing-a-bulleted-list/</link>
	<description>A blog about good business writing and bad. Especially the bad. Because there&#039;s so much more of the bad.</description>
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		<title>By: Clare Lynch</title>
		<link>http://www.dorisandbertie.com/goodcopybadcopy/2008/10/07/tautology-tuesday-how-to-avoid-inflation-when-introducing-a-bulleted-list/comment-page-1/#comment-709</link>
		<dc:creator>Clare Lynch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 10:07:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daccreative.co.uk/goodcopybadcopy/?p=37#comment-709</guid>
		<description>Hilarious. A great example, too, of how rephrasing an overly complex phrase in plain English can reveal the absurdity in original statement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hilarious. A great example, too, of how rephrasing an overly complex phrase in plain English can reveal the absurdity in original statement.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.dorisandbertie.com/goodcopybadcopy/2008/10/07/tautology-tuesday-how-to-avoid-inflation-when-introducing-a-bulleted-list/comment-page-1/#comment-708</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 09:28:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daccreative.co.uk/goodcopybadcopy/?p=37#comment-708</guid>
		<description>Thank you.

I think you&#039;re right. It can sound desperate. My immediate thought is &quot;mmm. You claim to be able to do what I need. Yet you&#039;re not good enough at it to boast about it in your list of &#039;things we do&#039;&quot;.

On the subject of comical legalese, I was sent this snippet by a friend from a recent New Scientist article. It features this same &#039;...but are not limited to...&#039; fun.

&quot;Forget this before reading
THE bank HSBC recently sent David Holdsworth new &quot;General Terms and Conditions&quot; which, among other things, require him to take reasonable precautions to prevent fraudulent use of his security details. To his dismay, the lawyers specify: &quot;These [precautions] include but are not limited to never writing down your security details and not choosing security details to make them more memorable to you. &#039;In short,&#039; Holdsworth summarises, &quot;I must choose passwords that I find difficult to remember and not write them down.&#039; &quot;
&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you.</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re right. It can sound desperate. My immediate thought is &#8220;mmm. You claim to be able to do what I need. Yet you&#8217;re not good enough at it to boast about it in your list of &#8216;things we do&#8217;&#8221;.</p>
<p>On the subject of comical legalese, I was sent this snippet by a friend from a recent New Scientist article. It features this same &#8216;&#8230;but are not limited to&#8230;&#8217; fun.</p>
<p>&#8220;Forget this before reading<br />
THE bank HSBC recently sent David Holdsworth new &#8220;General Terms and Conditions&#8221; which, among other things, require him to take reasonable precautions to prevent fraudulent use of his security details. To his dismay, the lawyers specify: &#8220;These [precautions] include but are not limited to never writing down your security details and not choosing security details to make them more memorable to you. &#8216;In short,&#8217; Holdsworth summarises, &#8220;I must choose passwords that I find difficult to remember and not write them down.&#8217; &#8221;<br />
&#8220;</p>
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		<title>By: Clare Lynch</title>
		<link>http://www.dorisandbertie.com/goodcopybadcopy/2008/10/07/tautology-tuesday-how-to-avoid-inflation-when-introducing-a-bulleted-list/comment-page-1/#comment-683</link>
		<dc:creator>Clare Lynch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:28:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daccreative.co.uk/goodcopybadcopy/?p=37#comment-683</guid>
		<description>Great examples, Chris. 

The &quot;may include but are not limited to the following&quot; formula, especially when repeated in a near-liturgical manner has an almost comical cover-your-back legal ring to it, don&#039;t you think? It&#039;s as though they&#039;re saying: &quot;Please, please, PLEASE give us the work - even if what you want is not listed here, we can do it, honest!&quot; 

Same with &quot;achieve and exceed&quot; - it&#039;s as though they&#039;re trying to cover all possible outcomes. 

Both examples support my view that tautology makes you sound desperate and untrustworthy.

On a separate note, I&#039;m intrigued to see that they offer help with &quot;integrated care delivery networks&quot;. Oh how I love impenetrable concatenations of nouns!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great examples, Chris. </p>
<p>The &#8220;may include but are not limited to the following&#8221; formula, especially when repeated in a near-liturgical manner has an almost comical cover-your-back legal ring to it, don&#8217;t you think? It&#8217;s as though they&#8217;re saying: &#8220;Please, please, PLEASE give us the work &#8211; even if what you want is not listed here, we can do it, honest!&#8221; </p>
<p>Same with &#8220;achieve and exceed&#8221; &#8211; it&#8217;s as though they&#8217;re trying to cover all possible outcomes. </p>
<p>Both examples support my view that tautology makes you sound desperate and untrustworthy.</p>
<p>On a separate note, I&#8217;m intrigued to see that they offer help with &#8220;integrated care delivery networks&#8221;. Oh how I love impenetrable concatenations of nouns!</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.dorisandbertie.com/goodcopybadcopy/2008/10/07/tautology-tuesday-how-to-avoid-inflation-when-introducing-a-bulleted-list/comment-page-1/#comment-682</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 18:05:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daccreative.co.uk/goodcopybadcopy/?p=37#comment-682</guid>
		<description>Some examples of this are here http://www.tcs.com/industries/healthcare/Pages/default.aspx

Take your pick. &quot;...which may include but are not limited to the following:&quot;

I did not like the phrase &quot;TCS understands your business objectives and helps you achieve and exceed them&quot;. I struggle with the logic of both achieving and exceeding my objectives at the same time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some examples of this are here <a href="http://www.tcs.com/industries/healthcare/Pages/default.aspx" rel="nofollow">http://www.tcs.com/industries/healthcare/Pages/default.aspx</a></p>
<p>Take your pick. &#8220;&#8230;which may include but are not limited to the following:&#8221;</p>
<p>I did not like the phrase &#8220;TCS understands your business objectives and helps you achieve and exceed them&#8221;. I struggle with the logic of both achieving and exceeding my objectives at the same time.</p>
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		<title>By: --Deb</title>
		<link>http://www.dorisandbertie.com/goodcopybadcopy/2008/10/07/tautology-tuesday-how-to-avoid-inflation-when-introducing-a-bulleted-list/comment-page-1/#comment-671</link>
		<dc:creator>--Deb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Oct 2008 02:40:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daccreative.co.uk/goodcopybadcopy/?p=37#comment-671</guid>
		<description>As I understand it, you should never put a colon directly after a verb primarily because a colon&#039;s main function is to introduce. Putting it after the verb is redundant, since the verb is already introducing the list.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I understand it, you should never put a colon directly after a verb primarily because a colon&#8217;s main function is to introduce. Putting it after the verb is redundant, since the verb is already introducing the list.</p>
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		<title>By: clare</title>
		<link>http://www.dorisandbertie.com/goodcopybadcopy/2008/10/07/tautology-tuesday-how-to-avoid-inflation-when-introducing-a-bulleted-list/comment-page-1/#comment-660</link>
		<dc:creator>clare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:14:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daccreative.co.uk/goodcopybadcopy/?p=37#comment-660</guid>
		<description>Interesting. So the lesson here is not to follow rules slavishly - but to understand why they&#039;re there. That way, too, you&#039;ll know which rules it is OK to break, and when.

For any readers wanting to know how to keep everyone happy, I would suggest you lose both the colon and the &quot;among others&quot;, giving the following:

J. K. Rowling’s books include

- Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone
- Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
- The Tales of Beedle the Bard</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting. So the lesson here is not to follow rules slavishly &#8211; but to understand why they&#8217;re there. That way, too, you&#8217;ll know which rules it is OK to break, and when.</p>
<p>For any readers wanting to know how to keep everyone happy, I would suggest you lose both the colon and the &#8220;among others&#8221;, giving the following:</p>
<p>J. K. Rowling’s books include</p>
<p>- Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone<br />
- Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire<br />
- The Tales of Beedle the Bard</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.dorisandbertie.com/goodcopybadcopy/2008/10/07/tautology-tuesday-how-to-avoid-inflation-when-introducing-a-bulleted-list/comment-page-1/#comment-659</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daccreative.co.uk/goodcopybadcopy/?p=37#comment-659</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re right, your correction did not create the problem. I was unclear in my first comment. 

In the US, the rule from Strunk &amp; White is sometimes shortened, incorrectly, to &quot;a colon should never follow a verb or a preposition.&quot; This may be why you see this particular tautology so often (in the US, anyway). People do not want to put a colon after the verb &quot;include,&quot; so they add the filler words, creating the tautology.

I&#039;m no prescriptivist either, and completely agree that split infinitives are no big deal. But, all of this could be a clear example of why prescriptivism is oftentimes necessary: in an attempt to avoid one error, a writer can stumble into an even worse error. Knowing and following the basic rules leads to clean writing.

Can&#039;t wait to read your take on pedantry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right, your correction did not create the problem. I was unclear in my first comment. </p>
<p>In the US, the rule from Strunk &amp; White is sometimes shortened, incorrectly, to &#8220;a colon should never follow a verb or a preposition.&#8221; This may be why you see this particular tautology so often (in the US, anyway). People do not want to put a colon after the verb &#8220;include,&#8221; so they add the filler words, creating the tautology.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m no prescriptivist either, and completely agree that split infinitives are no big deal. But, all of this could be a clear example of why prescriptivism is oftentimes necessary: in an attempt to avoid one error, a writer can stumble into an even worse error. Knowing and following the basic rules leads to clean writing.</p>
<p>Can&#8217;t wait to read your take on pedantry.</p>
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		<title>By: clare</title>
		<link>http://www.dorisandbertie.com/goodcopybadcopy/2008/10/07/tautology-tuesday-how-to-avoid-inflation-when-introducing-a-bulleted-list/comment-page-1/#comment-658</link>
		<dc:creator>clare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 17:13:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daccreative.co.uk/goodcopybadcopy/?p=37#comment-658</guid>
		<description>Thanks for commenting, Blake. 

You sent me off on a bit of a grammatical hunt. I can find no explicit reference to the rule you cite in any of my UK grammar guides, though I did find a website that said the practice isn&#039;t always followed in British English. I suspect we in the UK are a little more relaxed about this issue.

I would say that the correcting example doesn&#039;t introduce the problem - it is there in the original. The illiterate &quot;Include, among others&quot; isn&#039;t an independent clause either - the &quot;among others&quot; is supplementary information and the verb is still separated from its complements.  

Also, and I know this is sticking my head above the parapet, language is a constantly changing thing and my example, as you acknowledge, reflects very common current practice, especially in business writing. As anyone who&#039;s read my earlier post on the split infinitive will know, while I&#039;m all for correct grammar and punctuation, I&#039;m not a complete prescriptivist. So we have to ask ourselves if the colon here really matters enough to get worked up about? The punctuation doesn&#039;t obscure the meaning (as it does in the phrase &quot;eats, shoots and leaves&quot;, for example). 

I do sometimes feel that pedantry can cause us to focus on the wrong things when it comes to writing (in fact, I&#039;ve been planning to blog about it at some point). Whatever your feelings towards the colon, my solution deals with the tautology, which to me is a far greater crime!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for commenting, Blake. </p>
<p>You sent me off on a bit of a grammatical hunt. I can find no explicit reference to the rule you cite in any of my UK grammar guides, though I did find a website that said the practice isn&#8217;t always followed in British English. I suspect we in the UK are a little more relaxed about this issue.</p>
<p>I would say that the correcting example doesn&#8217;t introduce the problem &#8211; it is there in the original. The illiterate &#8220;Include, among others&#8221; isn&#8217;t an independent clause either &#8211; the &#8220;among others&#8221; is supplementary information and the verb is still separated from its complements.  </p>
<p>Also, and I know this is sticking my head above the parapet, language is a constantly changing thing and my example, as you acknowledge, reflects very common current practice, especially in business writing. As anyone who&#8217;s read my earlier post on the split infinitive will know, while I&#8217;m all for correct grammar and punctuation, I&#8217;m not a complete prescriptivist. So we have to ask ourselves if the colon here really matters enough to get worked up about? The punctuation doesn&#8217;t obscure the meaning (as it does in the phrase &#8220;eats, shoots and leaves&#8221;, for example). </p>
<p>I do sometimes feel that pedantry can cause us to focus on the wrong things when it comes to writing (in fact, I&#8217;ve been planning to blog about it at some point). Whatever your feelings towards the colon, my solution deals with the tautology, which to me is a far greater crime!</p>
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		<title>By: Blake</title>
		<link>http://www.dorisandbertie.com/goodcopybadcopy/2008/10/07/tautology-tuesday-how-to-avoid-inflation-when-introducing-a-bulleted-list/comment-page-1/#comment-657</link>
		<dc:creator>Blake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:30:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.daccreative.co.uk/goodcopybadcopy/?p=37#comment-657</guid>
		<description>But, in your correcting example, don&#039;t you run into the problem of a colon dividing one sentence into two ungrammatical, dependent clauses?

In the US, our default style manual is Strunk &amp; White, which states that a colon &quot;should not separate a verb from its complement or a preposition from its object.&quot; This has always been one of my pet peeves, and I am noticing it more as people begin to rely on indented lists in blogs and PowerPoint decks.

Is it different in the UK? The Economist&#039;s style guide is unclear, though it does imply that a colon should be used to separate an &lt;i&gt;in&lt;/i&gt;dependent clause from a list of items.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But, in your correcting example, don&#8217;t you run into the problem of a colon dividing one sentence into two ungrammatical, dependent clauses?</p>
<p>In the US, our default style manual is Strunk &amp; White, which states that a colon &#8220;should not separate a verb from its complement or a preposition from its object.&#8221; This has always been one of my pet peeves, and I am noticing it more as people begin to rely on indented lists in blogs and PowerPoint decks.</p>
<p>Is it different in the UK? The Economist&#8217;s style guide is unclear, though it does imply that a colon should be used to separate an <i>in</i>dependent clause from a list of items.</p>
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